Comments on: Bedside teaching, Computer Based Learning and Wiki in Medical Education http://www.shockmd.com/2009/01/28/bedside-teaching-computer-based-learning-and-wiki-in-medical-education/ A Neurostimulating Blog Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:14:21 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Jan Martens http://www.shockmd.com/2009/01/28/bedside-teaching-computer-based-learning-and-wiki-in-medical-education/comment-page-1/#comment-2136 Jan Martens Thu, 29 Jan 2009 08:56:13 +0000 http://www.shockmd.com/?p=1768#comment-2136 @Dr Shock: I agree. Writing for a Wiki or making a presentation are not the ways to train collaboration. If you want teamwork you should have multiplayer hospital (management) game. Someone can play the cardiologist, someone the psychiatrist etc, but you have to cooperate otherwise the patient will die. Of course students will "kill" the patient but you can learn from that as well. @Dr Shock: I agree. Writing for a Wiki or making a presentation are not the ways to train collaboration.

If you want teamwork you should have multiplayer hospital (management) game. Someone can play the cardiologist, someone the psychiatrist etc, but you have to cooperate otherwise the patient will die. Of course students will “kill” the patient but you can learn from that as well.

]]> By: Anne Marie Cunningham http://www.shockmd.com/2009/01/28/bedside-teaching-computer-based-learning-and-wiki-in-medical-education/comment-page-1/#comment-2129 Anne Marie Cunningham Wed, 28 Jan 2009 23:21:43 +0000 http://www.shockmd.com/?p=1768#comment-2129 http://yofl.pbwiki.com/ Have you seen this? I think it will be interesting to watch. http://yofl.pbwiki.com/
Have you seen this? I think it will be interesting to watch.

]]> By: Dr Shock http://www.shockmd.com/2009/01/28/bedside-teaching-computer-based-learning-and-wiki-in-medical-education/comment-page-1/#comment-2128 Dr Shock Wed, 28 Jan 2009 22:40:49 +0000 http://www.shockmd.com/?p=1768#comment-2128 @ Anne Marie It remains to be seen what professionals can learn from wikis. Probably writing for consumers and patients, don't think collaboration will be learned from it. Alas not going to AMEE, somewhere else in the near future I hope, kind regards Dr Shock @ Anne Marie It remains to be seen what professionals can learn from wikis. Probably writing for consumers and patients, don’t think collaboration will be learned from it. Alas not going to AMEE, somewhere else in the near future I hope, kind regards Dr Shock

]]> By: Anne Marie Cunningham http://www.shockmd.com/2009/01/28/bedside-teaching-computer-based-learning-and-wiki-in-medical-education/comment-page-1/#comment-2127 Anne Marie Cunningham Wed, 28 Jan 2009 22:06:17 +0000 http://www.shockmd.com/?p=1768#comment-2127 Hello I also wanted to add that I agree with Ian that we nned to think about what we want out of collaboration in a wiki. @bonnycastle has mentioned before how she found that students in her university also were good at distributing tasks amongst themselves but not collaborating in learning.... which makes me think that the notion that wikis lead to a special kind of learning is hard to believe. Wikipedia is a successful wiki. Do contributors learn in the way that we hope students will? Has there been any research on the effect of contributing to wikipedia to learning? Next, I agree that it would be wonderful to meet face to face. Are you going to AMEE? I met three fellow twitters today and it was a great experience! Hello
I also wanted to add that I agree with Ian that we nned to think about what we want out of collaboration in a wiki. @bonnycastle has mentioned before how she found that students in her university also were good at distributing tasks amongst themselves but not collaborating in learning…. which makes me think that the notion that wikis lead to a special kind of learning is hard to believe. Wikipedia is a successful wiki. Do contributors learn in the way that we hope students will? Has there been any research on the effect of contributing to wikipedia to learning?

Next, I agree that it would be wonderful to meet face to face. Are you going to AMEE? I met three fellow twitters today and it was a great experience!

]]> By: Dr Shock http://www.shockmd.com/2009/01/28/bedside-teaching-computer-based-learning-and-wiki-in-medical-education/comment-page-1/#comment-2125 Dr Shock Wed, 28 Jan 2009 20:09:16 +0000 http://www.shockmd.com/?p=1768#comment-2125 @jan I think in medicine what we would like to achieve as collaboration is team work, usually treating a patient is a cooperation between several specialists, nurses and others, we learn from each other besides that we all have separate specialties. It's synergy we want to achieve. But good team work needs training in certain qualities like for instance learning from each other, how to deal with negative criticism, how and when to discuss problems, respect the responsibilities of the other professionals. Could go on but this was the essence in what wikis probably won't teach. @ Anne Marie Cunningham. Wouldn't it be nice to compare curricula with each other, maybe in ....wikis?;) I agree we can learn from each other through web2.0, but even better so when meeting face to face if there is enough to discuss, what do you think? @jan I think in medicine what we would like to achieve as collaboration is team work, usually treating a patient is a cooperation between several specialists, nurses and others, we learn from each other besides that we all have separate specialties. It’s synergy we want to achieve. But good team work needs training in certain qualities like for instance learning from each other, how to deal with negative criticism, how and when to discuss problems, respect the responsibilities of the other professionals. Could go on but this was the essence in what wikis probably won’t teach.

@ Anne Marie Cunningham. Wouldn’t it be nice to compare curricula with each other, maybe in ….wikis?;)
I agree we can learn from each other through web2.0, but even better so when meeting face to face if there is enough to discuss, what do you think?

]]> By: Anne Marie Cunningham http://www.shockmd.com/2009/01/28/bedside-teaching-computer-based-learning-and-wiki-in-medical-education/comment-page-1/#comment-2124 Anne Marie Cunningham Wed, 28 Jan 2009 13:57:53 +0000 http://www.shockmd.com/?p=1768#comment-2124 Thank you very much for this post. @wmjohn commented yesterday that he thought this was a great paper because 'not often educational researchers report negative results'. I think if you do something and it doesn't work you are not sure if that is because you didn't do it well enough, or if it just don't work. Such is the nature of complex interventions. But I think that discussing what we have or have not achieved in these spaces is a perfect use of web2.0. Thank you very much for this post. @wmjohn commented yesterday that he thought this was a great paper because ‘not often educational researchers report negative results’. I think if you do something and it doesn’t work you are not sure if that is because you didn’t do it well enough, or if it just don’t work. Such is the nature of complex interventions. But I think that discussing what we have or have not achieved in these spaces is a perfect use of web2.0.

]]> By: Jan Martens http://www.shockmd.com/2009/01/28/bedside-teaching-computer-based-learning-and-wiki-in-medical-education/comment-page-1/#comment-2122 Jan Martens Wed, 28 Jan 2009 09:51:28 +0000 http://www.shockmd.com/?p=1768#comment-2122 It sounds very familiar. During my medical education I always made the powerpoint presentation because I was computer skilled. Others did the other work. This is also cooperation, but probably not the kind of cooperation educators are seeking. I would like to know what kind of attitudes educators would like to develop with cooperation? Personally I think that you should do CBL first and then BT. This way as a student you already have some insides and that does make you look less stupid. Finally I would like to add a smart thing to make the students pay attention during BT. Do a pre-BT and a post-BT test about the things they will learn during the BT. Also tell them that the test results will be announced in the group after the BT. It makes students pay more attention. Or at least I payed more attention ;-). It sounds very familiar. During my medical education I always made the powerpoint presentation because I was computer skilled. Others did the other work. This is also cooperation, but probably not the kind of cooperation educators are seeking. I would like to know what kind of attitudes educators would like to develop with cooperation?

Personally I think that you should do CBL first and then BT. This way as a student you already have some insides and that does make you look less stupid.

Finally I would like to add a smart thing to make the students pay attention during BT. Do a pre-BT and a post-BT test about the things they will learn during the BT. Also tell them that the test results will be announced in the group after the BT. It makes students pay more attention. Or at least I payed more attention ;-) .

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